being a threat to you. if you end up seeing a movement like what we saw with the tea party movement or against wall street as we saw about ten or 12 years ago you end up seeing the political parties trying to almost corrupt those movements to ensure you end up having just two parties. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. a look at that, we're entirely out of time for this show. it went by really fast. that'll do it for me on this friday. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. it is through line in the story of the classified documents investigation, the one thing that keeps popping up over and over again. and it just might have been one of the biggest factors that led to trump being indicted by the government he once led. it is of course his obsessive attachment to what he saw as his

boxes. "the new york times" reports this, quote, during president trump's years in the white house his aides began to refer to the boxes full of papers and odds and ends he carted around with him almost everywhere as the beautiful mind material. it was a reference to the title of a book and movie depicting the life of john f nash jr., the mathematician with schizophrenia played in the film by russell crow. one trump official who spoke anonplacely to describe the situation said while the materials were disorganized trump would notice if someone rifled through them or they were not arranged in a particular way. it was the person said, quote, how his mind works but "the times" describes trump's organized chaos was nothing new. here's a look at his office at trump tower back in 2015 from an interview with wall street germ. >> this office is all you, and it's a little bit junky. >> yeah.

you know what? this i just got a few weeks ago. this is from the marine corp. that's the chair from the apprentice that i used. these are different things, tom brady's super bowl helmet. isis mike tyson's belt. this is vince mcmann from the world wressage federation. this is shaquille o'neal's shoe. >> our friend and the former principal director of national intelligence sue gordon has explained to us on this broadcast, there were guardrails at least at the white house while he was president to protect the sensitive national security documents that trump had at his disposable that ended up in those boxes. those guardrails, of course, disappeared the second he was no longer president. >> in his official capacity he had a lot of rings of professionals around him to help him execute -- to help protect

not only him, the information that he possessed and also the material he carried with him. so probably worried a bit less about that. our adversaries recognize the value of not only individual but what the individual has and especially physical documents. and you always worry, and they are sophisticated services with lots of ways, technical and human, to go after things. so i just think anyone who suggests that this situation of highly classified documents being out of a secure facility relatively unprotected for a long period of time in a known way didn't represent a significant security threat, just doesn't understand that there actually are people out there who would do us harm, and it actually doesn't even take

complicity on the part of the actor in order to provide the opening for that damage. >> deep concern over the potential damage caused by the documents being essentially out in the open for more than a year colliding head on with trump's years long hoarding habit, leading ultimately as we all know now to his indictment. once again from that brand new "the new york times" reporting, quote, the contents of those boxes and trump's insistence on hanging onto them are now at the heart of a 38-count indictment against the former president and his personal aide, walt nauta. prosecutors have accused trump of obstructing their investigation into his possession of classified material after leaving office and putting national security secrets at risk. the beautiful mind boxes are where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "the new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt joins us. also joining us today former fbi counter intelligence agent pete

struck is back. and mary mccord is back, former top official in the national security division. mike, there have been reports about his boxes. there have been interviews about his obsession, but i'd never heard this description which sort of ties his affinity for conspiracy theories as an orator, if you will, with the kinds of things he like tuesday have with him all the time. take me through what you and your colleagues are reporting. >> yeah, the beautiful mind was a new way into this story, to give a larger sense of the history of the boxes and sort of how we got to where we are in this story. one of the sort of remarkable things about it is that this is a president who is obsessed with having these documents, holding onto these documents. and he was never a reader. i talked to someone in reporting for this story who said that he

had never seen trump read more than half a page. nevertheless, he was carting these materials around as a way, maybe as a security blanket, maybe as a way to make arguments about things. it's not entirely clear. we know these documents had some personal residence with him, were things either he had gripes with or that he was proud of, and that it was sort of a pack rat for the commander in chief. and this behavior led to him holding onto the boxes, insisting that they were his, and getting himself in more trouble than he could ever have or ever has in his entire life as he stared down this indictment in which the boxes are at the center of. >> mike, "the wall street journal" interview was something that we thought might be

connected in terms of his patterns of showing off his treasures because the indictment has two allegations. they're not charged instances of dissemination, but there are two instances in jack smith emphasis indictment of donald trump of him showing off his treasured classified documents, one to malign mark milly ostensibly and the other showing a map to the head of his political action committee. what is the sense of how he, what he did with his beautiful mind material that he liked today take with him wherever he went? >> look, for someone impervious to the facts he was always looking for something to try and make an argument for why he was so great or why he thinks he had been so wrong. this is why he read the

newspaper -- he read the newspaper looking for those exact things. this is not someone who read the presidential daily briefing. when he was given it, he was given it orally, and they usually couldn't get more than a few minutes into it without him going on some tangent or expressing his gripes with the intelligence community. so he was always searching for something. this is why he got himself into a lot of problems. he was constantly searching through his administration to settle scores, to use the justice department as an extension of the government for his own political purposes. he never was able to push himself past his gripes and the small problems that he thought he had that he wanted to go back and relitigate. and that is at the heart of many of his problems because his

inability to look past those things are why he gets himself into a range of trouble dating back to trying to win over, you know, james comey's loyalty or trying to get don megan to create a fake document or trying to get the ukrainian government to do investigations of his rival, that he couldn't get his own fbi or justice department that he thought at the time to do. these are all, like, in the scheme of the president of the united states largely minor things that led him to very, very self-inflicted behavior. >> mary mccord, in this new reporting of trump's response to another day as the twice indicted ex-president, the one thing that never comes up a is denial. there's never denial that he took classified documents and

refused to return them. there's this almost reflexive you hit the knee about blinken and the sock drawer and this obsessive almost child like repeating of the word i had the presidential records act, the presidential records act, which has no relation to whether or not he committed the crime of unlawful retention of classified documents. what do you see in just what's playing to the eye ever since he's been indicted about his state of mind when it comes to -- his position today and he wants them returned, he wants the unlawfully retained classified documents sent back to him to put back in his beautiful mind boxes. >> you know, there's part of me that thinks this is just part of a defense which is that i couldn't possibly have had the intent, or knowing intent to retain national defense information because i honestly

and seriously believed these were my records, and i honestly believed the presidential records act made them mine. as we discussed on other shows, the presidential records act is completely opposite of that. it says all the documents and information that constitute official business of the president, that's regardless of whether it's ceremonial roles or, you know, official execution of executive branch functions roles, you know, everything except for your own private campaigning and your personal family photos, frankly, is pretty much a presidential record, which belongs to the u.s. government, not to the former president, and that's why it had to be return today the archives before anyone even recognized there was classified information in those documents. so, you know, he continues to sort of basically admit that he had them along with his explanation they're mine, they're mine. it's interesting when we talk

about this beautiful mind theory that has some similarities to other matters. but i'll also note this isn't the first case of prosecution of illegal retention of national defense information where it appears the person just wanted to hoard documents. i mean during the trump administration his department of justice prosecuted a man named herald martin who had been a government contractor for multiple different intelligence agencies and had been stockpiling classified information in his home and even his car for over 20 years. there's no indication he ever disseminated it. there's no indication he did anything with it except maybe hold onto it or look through it -- not maybe hold onto it. he did hold onto it and look through it. and that case was resolved with him getting a sentence of nine years. to sue gordon's point about the

danger even if you're not disseminating because our adversaries have ways human or otherwise to get access to that. and one of it cases made in that case with martin is the retention of those documents in his personal possession greatly increased the risk of their unauthorized disclosure and also created for the intelligence community the issue of trying to figure out what had been compromised and of course quit using sources and methods because of that. that's a person who didn't have mar-a-lago -- he wasn't living and storing documents at mar-a-lago, a place that's open to hundreds of visitors every year to including foreign visitors. so that's the seriousness of it. but it also shows for some people something about having a lot of documents around and classified documents makes them feel i guess special. i'm not sure. >> and this is where we always regret that we don't have

regular psychologists to book because it may be it made him feel special, but whatever it is, pete struck, donald trump as a national security counter intelligence question slash threat is a years long question now. if you're mccabe and opened an investigation into donald trump when he fired comey because he could not see it to let flame go. as far as i know these questions were not resolved. they were asked when donald trump sought asked. this 39-page indictment presents all of the things that mike describes, someone whose legal problems are all self-inflicted. but to the point mary's getting to, someone who has always been a national security question, maybe threat to the united states of america. >> yeah, nicolle, i'd go further. i'd say donald trump is a counter intelligence nightmare

still to this day. it reminds me back when all our kids were toddlers and you'd have to go to a long car ride and say take your little backpack, pick two toys and you're going to go on the road and play with it. for trump these things are like shiny baubles. they are like mike tyson's belt, something he has a fascination with and there are huge national security implications from that. the fact of the matter is it is not a belt, not a shoe, it's something that could put somebody's life at risk and something that could disclose the capabilities of a satellite. it is something that clearly we could tell a couple of things, one, he took this stuff with him everywhere it appears, so the chances in my opinion are high there was classified information at bedminster, there was classified information at trump tower. who knows whether it was ireland or here in washington, d.c., but he clearly took this information with him on his little road trip in his backpack in these boxes wherever he went. and then the second thing is,

you know, all those places, it's not just the question of what trump did with it, the division is whether or not other people, possible intelligence services, the russian, the thicheese possibly are targeting not only mar-a-lago but bedminster and trump tower and all these places. so even if trump didn't want to do anything with those documents showing them to people, and we know from the indictment it appears he did at least in the case of the iran document, that there is a risk simply by taking those outside of controlled space. so that didn't stop obviously when he left the presidency because he kept all those documents. i think there's a very reasonable question about whether or not even today the government has back all the classified information trump took with him. and so if i'm in the intelligence community, not only have i been busy doing a risk assessment of all the documents being recovered to figure out what needs to be mitigated, i've got this deep, uneasy feeling in

the pit of my stomach wondering what else was taken that i don't have back, that i need to worry about. it's a question and a threat that hasn't stopped. and again, looking at this i see it as a counter intelligence nightmare. >> mike, you've done extensive reporting on the counter intelligence questions that were asked about donald trump at the beginning of his presidency. >> in some ways i look at it, but it's sort of -- i'm not sure if it's a next chapter or a book end, but, look, in may of 217, you know, andy mccabe and struck open up this investigation into whether donald trump is a national security threat and obstructing justice. and while the issues in the indictment are different than the issues that they were looking at at the time,

essentially you could read the indictment as one that is about a threat to national security and obstructing justice. and it sort of pulls the thread through to show what happens when donald trump is investigated when he is no longer president of the united states and he's investigated, you know, by a justice department that is not, you know, afraid to take him on. now, would the justice department have gotten there on its own had it not, you know, when they opened up those original investigations? i don't know. but i think that something that i always have to sort of remind myself of is that you had a special counsel's office with jack smith that really went after this. they weren't listening to anything that trump had to say. they didn't have a trump-controlled justice department to go through to figure out whether they could subpoena the president of the united states or do any of these other matters. and they really for lack of a

better term took the gloves off and pierced the inner circle around trump in a way that we had not seen before to produce an investigation that essentially says, look, this is a threat to national security and he obstructed justice in the process. >> yeah, pete, i want to let you respond to that, but jack smith literally pierced the bubble by going before the judge and showing that crimes were likely being committed through the attorney-client relationship and had access to everything. i mean what -- what are your thoughts? what's your reaction to some of the widening of the lens that mike's talking about? >> well, i think mike's absolutely right. i mean, look, there are two aspects to -- when you look at trump there's the criminal component, that was back in '17 when the obstruction case was open. what jack smith is doing now and mueller did is looking at the criminal aspect of of his

behavior. but there's a separate national security issue and that's interwoven but in many ways it's separate and distinct and if you go back and look to just the early days of all his interactions with putin when he stood there in helsinki and said he had no reason to disvalue putin, when he had the strange fascination with, you know, what putin thought with regard to nato and having meetings with putin when no one was present to take notes, when you had the pursuit of all these financial dealings while trump is saying i don't have any dealings there, that time and time again, you know, he's meeting in the oval office with sergei lavrov and

ambassador kisdiak whether or not he's under the thrall or leverage on the part of russia that is a counter intelligence concern. i think mike is contactually right that say the begin ofg the trump presidency. i mean, heck, that came up during his campaign when he made the russia, if you're listening, i hope you find e-mails. he's calling on russia as that government to help him, and it goes through up until the current date. i do think there's this national security thread line that is an important component but different from the things we're seeing from jack smith. >> mary, i'll give you the last word and get you on the record for something andrew wiseman flagged for all of us yesterday, which is this background check process under way that the department of justice has entered a protective order. but the first is why does this matter? this matters because trump didn't commit just any crime. trump committed the crime of endangering u.s. national security by the willful retention of national defense materials. he committed unrelated crime to

the questions that were being asked about him in 2017. he allegedly committed crimes that go to the heart of what the government worried he was as early as 2017, and that was as pete said a counter intelligence nightmare. >> yeah, and you know if you just look at the language of people like bill barr who said, you know, this is really serious, i think he said he's toast if these allegations are true, but the reason somebody like bill barr thinks it's so serious is because bill barr has sat in those meetings in the situation room at the white house, the situation room being a sensitive compartmentalized facility you can't bring a phone into because you take any risk of any information inside that room being obtained or exfiltrated by any adversary. you have the judge saying any attorney general in modern

history would have protthis case. it's because they all realize not just that he was a national security threat but frankly he continues to be a national security threat. we can get back the documents and as pete said we might not even have all of them back, but we can never get back what's in his head that he could be talking to people about anytime he sees it in his interest. >> that's such a good point. he can never unknow the things that he saw as the country's commander in chief. and mary, just real quickly is this a routine motion from doj, this protective order aschris kise and mr. blanche go through their security background checks? this is something we saw cross the wire as we came on the air. >> the motion i saw briefly from one of your producers who sent it to me before we were starting up is actually a motion for a protective order not so much related to the classified information but related today the unclassified yet still sensitive discovery that the government is ready to turn over

to defense counsel but only pursuant to a protective order. this is very standard, and the protective order just means you can't share this with people. right, you can't go around showing it because it includes personal information about witnesses. it includes grand jury testimony about identifying witnesses and identifying other personal about them, maybe even financial information. some of this discovery is probably just straight up discovery, things that under rules the defendant is entitled to in order to make a defense. some might be information which is information that could be exculpatory or could be used to impeach a witness. they know they have an obligation to do that, and as i've said, you know, for some time now for the government to even possibly have a chance of getting to trial before the election, they're going to have to be ready to turn over discovery immediately, and this shows that they are. meanwhile, of course, counsel are getting clearances so that they'll be able to actually view the classified information that

is at the heart of this case as well as potentially of other classified information they might need for their defense, and that will also be subject to a protective order, but not just a protective order. they won't be able to view that unless they are in a sensitive compartmentized facility or a skiff within the courthouse, because they can't take tat with them even under a protective order. just for the same reasons it can't sit there in mar-a-lago in a storage room, it can't sit in some lawyer's office as well. >> just that tells its own part of the story, right? the lawyers defending trump have to go read the material in a skiff that trump had as mike reported in his beautiful mind boxes. mike schmidt, thank you for being here and your great reporting, pete struck, and mary mccord, thank you for starring us off this hour. when we come back a paper play from the rnc shutting down any possibility of amending their so-called loyalty pledge in light of trump's second criminal indictment, telling candidates that they want to get

a debate stage next year, they have to promise to back a potential convicted felon. plus, where democrats are on all of it and the need some democrats to push back on information in republicans defending the ex-president's alleged crimes. just as new fears about right-wing extreme continue to grow. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k. don't go anywhere. everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people

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unity and respect for dissenting points of view quite like forcing your presidential candidates to commit to endorsing the party's eventual nominee. the gop is doing just that. one of those candidates, former arkansas governor asa hutchinson met with officials this week out of a desire to amend that loyalty condition he said out of the recent indictment. the party's response to asa hutchinson in short, heck no. rnc seen dwrr advisor richard walter said in a statement this, quote candidates who are are complaining about this to the press should seriously reconsider their priorities and whether they should even be running. and remember what we're talking about here in the first place. politico reports this. republicans are circling around the wagons around a man who is expected in court four times before the summer is over. in october the civil fraud lawsuit trial brought by a.g. tish james goes to trial and

then the e. jean carroll civil defamation suit and one having to do with get rich schemes with trump and his kids. then he'll face stormy daniels and the hush money case, and all that is without widely expected additional charges having to do with his role in planning the insurrection on january 6th. joining our conversation former republican congressman david jolly is here, plus the rev al sharpen host of politics nation. our friend basil snipe is here. david jolly, it's almost seizure to explain this way, right, than if they said, all right, now that he's been criminally charged, you know, we say tomato, you say tomato, it makes perfect sense the rnc's position is you will standby him even as slash if the ship goes down. >> yeah, nicolle, a humiliating moment for the republican national committee kind of

demonstrating the difference between a cult and a political organization requiring this absolute fealty. and skipping past the fact he's been found civilly liable for sexual assault. that apparently wasn't even a threshold question for this pledge. the question whether or not he has mishandled the nation's secrets is a threshold question, and the rnc batted it down and said we don't care you have to support our guy. now, the interesting thing, the second reason that's humiliating, nicolle, is i'm not sure the candidates themselves actually care. chris christie said i'll sign it even though i'll never support donald trump, and i'll treat this piece of paper the same way donald trump will. donald trump himself probably won't agree with it. the rnc really a feckless organization at this point even those who say i don't really mean it, but at the end of the day let everybody know that the republican national committee said if you are going to run for president, that means you must

support a felon found civilly liable for sexual assault. if that's our nominee, we're expecting you to stick with him. >> you know, we've seen this before, rev. i mean republicans were fine with i think his name was roy moore who was accused of child sexual abuse, really, really dark things, incredibly accused and the rnc isn't going to be for a twice indicted liable for sexual abuse and defamation guy who's going to be in court four times until the voters aren't. and i think the mistake -- and i'm nervous to call out mistakes on the right, but i think that the mistake is assuming that for the voters this is all static, that there's no capacity for anything to be dynamic. that may not be the case. >> we saw what roy moore in alabama, but i think the difference this time is it's going to be national. and in terms of media global

that you're literally talking about supporting a man that has been found civilly liable for sexual assault and indicted as a felon on the federal level and may have one in georgia. so what is going to be the platform of the republican party? are you going to run as law and order and you're supporting an indicted felon, a potential felon by the election, or are you going to run to the christian right and endorse somebody who has been found guilty of paying off a porn star? i mean so it becomes clearer and clearer when we're talking about a trump cult because the things that the republican party sold the country on from fighting crime, law and order to we're the christian right, family values, all the way to national security when you have a guy under indictment for keeping classified national security

documents, and on tape saying he knows he didn't declassify some things that he has, i don't understand if donald trump is the nominee, and according to all polls he will be at this point, what is going to be your platform you wouldn't be laughed out of everybody's living room. >> last time they made the platform and i think what the rev is articulating was apparent even to the rnc which is why the platform became i'm for donald trump, and my problem with covering the trump base is that whatever they do or don't do, whatever they can or can't tolerate, a twice indicted, liable for sexual assault candidate it doesn't really matter because even trump knows he probably can't win the white house with it trump base, and so i wonder what you think about, you know, for the purpose of all these conversations for the foreseeable future widening the lens beyond what the trump base will tolerate. at the end of the day who cares.

it's not big enough to send him back to the white house. >> right, it's not big enough to send him back to the white house, but i always think about this issue of vehicle, right? what is donald trump besides what we all know and talk about him, but he's also a vehicle for what republicans want warrant to be able to do across the country whether it's judges, policies at the local level, and i think this as leaders of the democratic party, think about what this kind of loyalty does to the rest of the ticket. not only are we talking about in terms of a presidential candidate, but you're essentially saying to everyone down ballot you have to do the exact same thing, but republicans aren't known for a decentralized party. they pretty much stay on message, so you're basically saying no matter where your candidates are running, that

they have to stick to the same rubric, to the same language, to the same rule of law from their perspective. and so they are actually even if they're saying we can't get, we can't elect donald trump on this alone, they're saying we're in some ways willing to forego that as long as everyone else down ballot is sticking to the same message. and i'll add this very quickly if you think about what's being reported over the last few days what the southern baptist are doing right now to try to ban women from being in leadership positions, i see a connection i should say with all of this, which is if you have an independent voice, we are going to find a way to silence it, whether you're running for office or you're standing in a pulpit. and that to me is what this sort of larger message about loyalty and this oath is about. it's about silencing any opposition to the person who could be the standard bearer and

to some extent is still the standard bearer of the republican party. >> in both instances it's about stifling and narrowing, right, the representation and opportunity to be heard with anti-democratic tactics. they didn't take a vote neither. it's really interesting, basil. i want to switch gears to what the democrats do in this moment, how they balance simply letting the rule of law play out and staying on offense on this big questions in our country about whether or not we are all governed by the same laws and rules. that conversation's next. don't go anywhere.

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well, the leader of the republican party and the front runr for the 2024 nomination has been indicted on criminal charges, president joe biden and the democratic party have largely stayed silent about all of it. that is because president biden reportedly told his white house aides in his re-election campaign to keep mum about the ongoing proceedings to avoid any appearance of influencing a judicial proceeding. it was guidance also shared with democrats in congress and largely heeded. but some other democrats are worried now that republicans are taking advantage of the vacuum that's been created to dominate the news cycle with outright lies and to spin the false narrative that trump is being persecuted for political reasons. anne fifer, former white house

strategist for president barack obama said this, quote, democrats need to go on offense to push back against trump's messaging before he discredits the investigation and distracts the public. quote, imagine during watergate being like what people dislike about nixon is his handling of the economy. economic mismanagement is not why nixon resigned. we're back with david, the rev, and basil. david jolly, what do you think? >> i'm not sure i fully agree with that. look, i think there's two actors here on the democratic side. first there's joe biden. joe biden cannot say a single thing. his likely opponent has been indicted. for democrats i think, sure, play offense, the message is important. don't play on the republican field but on this weaponization argument for democrats say we support the presidential records act as it's written, the espionage act as it's written

and those two and the due process for the former president. let's see what a jury determines because it's very hard to weaponize a jury. so, sure, play offense on the facts of this case, but i don't think you get on the republican playing field. democrats know the most like scenario today as we sit here today, nicolle, joe biden will be running against a convicted trump in federal court. that is likely he secures the nomination some time in february or march and faces the court later in the summer. stick with the facts and for joe biden no comment. >> listen, i have a -- i am torn on this question. i think vacuums are dangerous in the hands of this current post-fact republican party, rev. you cannot create a vacuum in any moment. i don't think we evelen live in a country where a tragedy is

seen as what it is anymore. the disinformation, the reliance on propaganda, we peeked at what was on the news and what was being created on the right sort of from last thursday through this thursday while trump was -- and even trump couldn't deny it. he was in his car being arraigned on his way to appear in court, but the projection and fabrication on the right is so next level that even putting the facts out there isn't necessarily about getting on offense anymore if you're a democrat. it's still inherently politically defensive because the right has moved -- they're not defending a conservative viewpoint. bill barr is the closest thing to a truth teller on the right when it comes to criminal exposure on the documents case, and his technical legal term for trump is that he's toast. i mean where do you come down on maybe not what the president does but what democrats do in this moment? >> i think that you pose a question right. you have to separate from what

the president does from the party. i don't think the president should say anything. he will open himself up to then letting them lure him into a discussion on these very faulty allegations against him and members of his family. why play into that? once he goes into this on trump, he opens himself up, and there's nothing there and he shouldn't even give it any credibility. the party, though, could have surrogates out there filling the vacuum. and the way to do it i agree with david is not to play their game. i wouldn't argue the case. i'd argue that i am concerned as we have secretary of state blinken right now in china about national security and we can't secure our classified documents. i would talk about the real danger of what's being accused here poses to all of us. we're dealing with china, supporting the war in ukraine, nato's at risk, and we're

sitting here acting like there's something debatable about whether classified information that may have people that are giving us intel exposed -- i would be filling the vacuum with surrogates that have credibility talking about the threat this is to america and change the debate. if you accept their premise, you're going to get to their conclusion. the democrats need to change the premise. the thing that needs to be discussed is national security, and dealing with the fact that we are not dreaming of one day we could be in a problem. we're facing china and russia. we're in ukraine right now. nato's on the table right now. and we ought to be saying this is what this is about. let the courts decide the criminality, but we can't argue that we are talking about a situation that we can't risk the sacred nature that we deal with classified information. >> i mean, basil, from a law and

order perspective the rule of law is excruciatingly so. we know it's not quick enough to make the victims of january 6th feel like anything is being done at a pace commensurate with what they saw that day, and the politics are right there in front of democrats and frankly any republicans running against trump. chris christie seems to recognize a moment, this is lights out moment to communicate to the entire nation forget about the 25% that are trump dead enders. we spend way too much -- they're in everyone's head. forget about them. but the other 75% of americans should be made to understand why trump is fundamentally unfit to serve other than his own office and own boxes and should have anything other than sports memorabilia inside of them ever again. >> that's absolutely right. and rick was on the show a couple days ago and i think there was a riff of what he said

democrats need to employ. the president doesn't need to do this, but the party should. and as we were talking before about the republican party saddling the candidates running for president and perhaps the rest of their ticket with this loyalty oath to donald trump, that's an opportunity for democrats to flip the script and talk about in very important detail what the president actually did and how dangerous for the country his actions were. you don't necessarily even have to go into the case -- and i don't think you should -- but talk about actually what was done and why that put the country in danger. you could have the democratic party flipping the script and talk about republicans being weak on national security. and in fact you could throw in republicans being weak on law enforcement, and that's a little tricky. but the point being that if republicans are going around saying that the department of justice and our federal

prosecutors are -- are weaponizing their positions, we should be able to say, no, you should trust the rule of law. you should allow the justice process to take its course, which republicans are not doing. >> which explains, too, why republicans have been onboard for trump's war. and it has been a war against facts, things you can see with your eyes and against his own justice department and fbi. thank you for having this conversation. the rev and basil stick around. david jolly, thank you for spending some of your friday with us. the justice department is also out with a long awaited report into the police murder of george floyd. that story, that reporting, that update is next, so don't go anywhere. , so don't go anywhere ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ get 2.9% apr for 36 months

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nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. as i told george floyd's family this morning, his death has had an irrevocable impact on the minneapolis community, on our country, and on the world. his loss is still felt deeply by those who loved and knew him and by many who did not. george floyd should be alive today. we observed many mpd officers who did their difficult work with professionalism, courage, and respect. but the patterns and practices we observed made what happened to george floyd possible. as one city leader told us, quote, "these systemic issues

didn't just occur on may 25th, 2020. there were instances like that that were being reported by the community long before that." the department of justice has concluded that there is reasonable cause to believe that the minneapolis police department and the city of minneapolis engaged in a pattern or practice of conduct that violates the first and fourth amendments of the united states constitution. >> that was attorney general merrick garland earlier today announcing his scathing report into the minneapolis police department and aftermath of the 2020 murder of george floyd. doj's investigation accuses the department of systemic abuse, racism, and discrimination, violating the constitutional rights of black and native american people. as a result of the report, the city of minneapolis has agreed to completely overhaul its police force, which has struggled with retention rates and community support since

floyd's murder. rev, your response? >> well, i think that -- i talked earlier this morning with some of the top officials in the justice department that was there in minneapolis. i was heartened, as more importantly, the family of george floyd was heartened. because many of the things i said when i did the eulogy at george floyd's funeral now has been certified by the justice department. the bad news is, we couldn't get the george floyd justice in policing bill through the congress and the senate, and that is why we need to vote and get a senate that will pass it. we need to make it law, not just doj policy. because if another president comes in and another attorney general comes in, the doj policy will change. we need to make it law. >> basil, last word? >> just an exclamation point on that comment. in all of this, i just remember eric garner, george floyd, even

the december in memphis, the tragic beating in memphis, tyre nichols. i always think about not just the officers that actually did the act, but all of them that stood around and watched. and what that consistently says to me is, it's not just the individuals, but it's also the culture that needs to be fixed. and i don't -- it's hard to even say how we do that. i start to think about all those folks that are pushing more of this abolitionist framework because they believe that the system is so corrupt that it can never be fixed, it's just got to be reworked and redone. so we still have a long road ahead. >> a very strong statement from merrick garland that certainly points to both the observations you two are making. basil sniple, reverend sharpton, thank you for spending the hour with us.

the rev tomorrow on "politics nation" at 5:00 p.m. eastern, sunday at 5:00 p.m. as well. still ahead, for most, we're watching the ex-president arrive at a miami courthouse this week, house republicans at the time doing something that won't shock you but should horrify you, they were honoring the january 6th insurrectionists on capitol hill. yes, that really happened. wants and save on every perk. sadie is getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone. cute couple. trips don't last forever, neither does summer love. so, sadie is moving on. apple music, check! introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon.

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it is my hope that we get a more fulsome understanding of the events of january 6th and the follow-on actions that have concerned many of us in the congress regarding people's treatment and civil rights. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. in the very same complex that an angry mob of hundreds of the ex-president's supporters stormed in protest, engaged in, quote, medieval combat, extreme members of the republican party health a socalled field hearing

this week honoring the insurrectionists. taking place while the disgraced ex-president was being arraigned on charges having to do with his mishandling of government secrets. republicans matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene, paul gosar, and a few others pushed forward the maga agenda, embracing the insurrectionists, hailing them as heroes. among the inelevated witnesses were rioters who have been sentenced to jail time and house detention, family members of insurrectionists, and one name you'll recognize, former president trump doj official, jeffrey clark. dana mill bank and the "washington post" wrote about this so-called hearing and the juxtaposition it created. quote, "from the witness table came howls of wrongful conviction and fascism. from the dais came a cry of tyranny. from both came attacks on judges, juries, and prosecutors. audience members were wearing t-shirts saying rioters have been, quote, murdered by capitol police.

in the hallway, keeping the peace, were two capitol police officers guarding the people accusing them of murder." it was and is an astonishing thing for anyone living here on earth one. sitting members of congress honoring those who attack our democracy and threaten the lives of lawmakers and the then vice president offering condolences to the insurrectionists for what they and their families have been through since they made the decision to be there that day. what we call facing consequences for one's criminal actions. the republican members still fanning the flames of the debunked conspiracies of the capital insurrection as well. tells you everything you need to know about the state of the current republican party, one completely at the mercy of its most extreme members. "technically gaetz couldn't call such a hearing because he is not a committee chairman. but house speaker kevin mccarthy, who's trying to win

back the support of extremists like gaetz, let it happen anyway. at the time the current 2024 gop front-runner has made pardoning the insurrectionists a litmus test for the republican nomination, gaetz and the others made clear where their loyalties lie." members of the gop honoring the january 6th insurrectionists is where we begin the hour. paul rykoff is back, host of the "independent americans" podcast and founder of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. frank macclizy is here. and former congresswoman and msnbc contributor done fa edwards is here. frank, i want to start with you. we've always watched this moving of the goal posts doesn't seem strong enough, but this slide toward even ted cruz on the day of the insurrection calling them

domestic terrorists. we marked his complete reversal on tucker carlson's broadcast where he said, "i misspoke, i chose my words incorrectly." the rewrite on the insurrection, which was in the words of the capitol police officers akin to medieval combat, seems to sit right at this intersection of what we talk about all the time. the domestic violent extremist threat, and this version of the trump republican party. >> it's legitimizing the continuing thread, but it's getting worse, nicole. when you legitimize by having elected officials actually throw a sham committee, a sham hearing, as you said, no authority to have it, there's no such subcommittee or committee. matt gaetz can't chair anything. they set it up in a visitors' room, put up props and official congressional seals to make it look like a hearing. they used hearing language. "i yield my time." "thank you for testifying."

no such thing happening. complete sham allowed by kevin mccarthy. but it makes a mockery of our rule of law and our justice system, because as you said, the people who were invited to speak, many of them have been arrested on felonies for their participation in january 6th. so they're being honored for being criminals. so this was a celebration of criminality. a sham hearing by sham members of congress who actually don't represent anything other than a very violent fringe of their constituency, and it's all about perpetuating the lie that these are patriots, january 6th was a patriotic act, the election was fraudulent, and they've got to keep this going. it's the only grip they have on power. but from a bigger lens here, let's back up and realize what they're doing. they are saying, we like the idea of violent insurgency, we

like the idea of overturning our legitimate government. because look, we're setting up a scam and a sham right here in the visitors' room. >> paul rykoff, there seems to be no mistake in terms of when it happened. let me read this from dana milbank s' piece. "all of you, my condolences, said paul gosar, who added tenderly, that quote, you know how i feel about ashli babbitt -- the woman police shot protecting the last line of defense protecting house members in the chamber. quote, this is heartbreaking the way you've all been treated. marjorie taylor greene added, quote, my deepest sympathy for each of you and all the pain and suffering you had to go through because of this government. she told them they were the victims of, quote, sick, evil people ask she and other lawmakers had a constitutional duty to object to joe biden's fraudulent electoral college votes because we all believe that the election had been

stolen." this happens as trump is being arrested and processed, and it feels like, absent dana milbank reporting it out and writing about it and bringing it to our attention, we might have missed a really important move in what is basically being created on washington's version of a sound stage, right? this wasn't real. but it was created for a very slibt reason, and i wonder what you think. >> the threat is real. it's a national security threat. it has to be treated as such. were the members of it's assess and al qaeda unavailable to testify yesterday? these people are celebrating enemies of america. i don't think that insurrectionist goes far enough, name lag these people are. they are domestic terrorists. and they continue to be at large. i think this is an important part of this conversation that people don't understand. the fbi is still looking for participants in the january 6th attack. just yesterday the boston fbi arrested two people. if you go to the fbi's twitter

page, you can see that they're still looking for the pipe bomber that set pipe bombs outside the dnc and rnc on january 6th. this is an active, unfolding investigation, and it's an imminent, active, and rising national security threat. that's why i've called it the american ingency. it includes members of congress, it includes the former president, it includes the former national security adviser in general flynn. it goes all the way down to the oath keepers, stewart rhodes, and people who could be convinced by their latest press conference. it's much bigger than a political story. it's a national security threat, and it has to be treated as such. >> what do you think creates not just the permission structure for something like this to happen, that as frank feglizi says a sham, but there was enough incentive, enough of a payout for them politically and perhaps operationally, which is even more ominous. where does that come from, and how do you combat that? >> it comes from the core of

this movement. if i were going to create an american insurgency, i'd want to infiltrate places of power. i'd want to infiltrate the media, congress, the military. and that's what we've seen is this movement. and that's really what it is, this movement has extended to every organization, every power structure within our society. and that's why it's so difficult to combat, that's why the pentagon continues to call domestic extreism our number one national security. so the regulation has to come from them. congress has got to do something about matt gaets and marjorie taylor greene. the media has to responsibly deal with coverage. voters have to vote them out. the pentagon has to stay vigilant, because every time they issue a call, there's a radical watching, people who are becoming radicalized, and their movement continues to grow. it's not just how many voters that these people can get, it's about how many violent people with guns they can motivate to do things. and that's why the threat continues to grow and why the threat continues to rise. >> let me show you how jeffrey

clark, frank, describes a conspiracy among those of us living on earth one. people who watched the insurrection, media who covered it with a camera trained on the insurrectionists itself. >> the january 6th committee worked with regime media. "the washington post," cnn, msnbc, et cetera. in that way, the fake narrative that an insurrection occurred on january 6th was blasted everywhere. the collective effect of the january 6th committee's shameful way of proceeding plus the reinforcing media blitz poisoned the jury pool in washington, d.c. >> the insurrection is a noninsurrection. feels as harrowing and terrifying for our country's ability to hold up a mirror to what happens here on anyone's watch, as any horror that's happened in history, frank. tell me what you view as the significance of jeffrey clark

saying the insurrection wasn't an insurrection? >> yeah, first, somebody should read him his miranda rights before he speaks and accidentally confesses to elements of crimes he's been charged with or is about to be charged with. but look, on a more imminent future thing, the statement about the jury pool being poisoned in the district of columbia, that's very interesting. because it's a theme we've already heard and we're going to hear, if indeed jack smith decides to lodge charges in the district with one or more of his grand juries. that's going to be a steady theme. and then the bigger picture i keep thinking about, nicole, is history books being written. we're battling children's curriculum now in schools. there's fights that break out at school board meetings. over curriculum. and i can already hear in places like florida where the

curriculum now really is controlled from tallahassee, that there are going to be kids in america, maybe our grandkids, maybe our kids, who are going to read history entirely different than reality. they're going to read that on this day, congress honored people who were criminals because they were patriots. on this day a man named jeffrey clark read into the congressional record -- if a sham hearing can get into the record -- the fact that there really wasn't any insurrection in the district of columbia. so we're literally seeing history being rewritten by the bad guys here. >> yeah, i mean, donna, i keep thinking of all the images of mitch mcconnell and speaker pelosi. there was a moment where they were all trying to protect themselves, let's be perfectly honest about this, but protect that branch of government from donald trump's supporters. importantly, protect donald

trump's vice president from the insurrectionists who wanted to, quote, hang mike pence. the idea of regime media being something that is being sewn into the minds of the insurrection-supporting elements of trump's base seems like a really important and scary thing. >> well, and these members of congress are intentionally inflicting that narrative into our public space. they are giving it voice. they're saying that, in fact, what we all saw with our own eyes and heard with our ears didn't happen. even though there's lots of video and other evidence that shows that it did. i think one of the dangers -- among the dangers of that sham hearing that was held was that it was essentially endorsed by the speaker of the house of representatives who is in line

in our constitution for succession. and that because he didn't stop it when he had the power to, he actually enabled these rogue members of congress to provide a spotlight for those who say that there wasn't an insurrection. this is a very dangerous moment for us. and we continue to have a weak speaker who enables the most right-wing members of his caucus to really control the agenda and put things out into the public that really should not be there. >> donna, i keep thinking, too, that for the insurrection-adjacent republicans, this isn't about 2020 anymore. marjorie taylor greene made the comment about the 2020 election. that's not what this is about. this is about the next election. this is jeffrey clark's audition to be the next attorney general,

a post he had for about 45 minutes on january 3rd, i think, before the other trump-appointed leaders of doj said, no, he's just a crazy, incompetent environmental lawyer. this is very much about the power structure moving forward. and i wonder what you think about the fact that they did this on the day that trump was arraigned? >> well, first of all, i don't think it was an accident. i think that these moves by these particular members of congress are very intentional. i mean, we saw gosar and biggs, for example, in the days and weeks leading up to january 6th. we saw these members of congress, even after january 6th, even after they were protected by capitol police, then come out again in support of these insurrectionists. we saw this group of members visiting the defendants at the jail in the district of

columbia. and so i don't think any of this stuff is an accident. and i do think that they are laying the groundwork to further undercut the judiciary and to further undercut what might happen in the next election. and so we should all be on guard here, because these people are really attacking every one of our institutions. and they are building the foundation right now for what will happen in the next election. >> let me read you a list of witnesses "the washington post" reported on. the wife of ronald maccabi, who's awaiting trial for allegedly attacking a police officer and dragging him into the mob while wearing a black vest that said "sheriff." underwear model john strand, sentenced to two years and eight months for being part of the mob that breached the capitol on january 6th and pushed past police officers. activist brandon straka, sentenced to home detention and

probation, fined for his january 6th actions. the aunt of matthew purna ed martin, organize are of the stop the steal effort leading up to january 6th. jeffrey clark, the trump justice official who tried to get states to toss the election results. it seems that by appearing alongside the insurrectionists, jeffrey clark is trying to tell us something, too, that the crimes he committed as he sought to topple the power structure at doj were things he didn't -- still doesn't fear any accountability for, that either trump would pardon him if he's leaked again or that he was acting at someone else's direction. what do you make of that list of witnesses? >> i think they shouldn't be a list of witnesses, they should be a list of inmates in a jail cell. or in guantanamo. this is upside down world. you've got people like gaetz and

taylor greene, who are 9/11 conspiracy people on steroids. this has gone to a whole other level that is about rewriting history, but is also about circling the wagons, protecting their own, mobilizing their base, naming targets. the mentioned the boston fbi. they also arrested three people yesterday for threatening new hampshire national public radio. they're naming their targets, calling their punches. and there are smaller punches happening all the time. attacks on members of the media, threats to election workers, threats on lgbtq and pride parades. this is happening on a daily basis, and i keep going back to 9/11. we had a national consciousness in this country about terrorism. if you see something, say something. everyone was vigilant. that's the kind of vigilance we need now in this country with regard to domestic terrorism. we need the president to set that stage, we need all national leaders to remind people about what this is all about. we can't let them rewrite history. we also can't let them mobilize

their forces to overthrow our government. because they said that's what they want to do. and there are little pieces of it every day in news headlines, but below the surface. if you and others aren't bringing attention to it, i don't think most americans see it, nicole. >> frank, you and i go around and around about the woefully inadequate toolkit available to law enforcement. paul's speaking to the other piece of it. this is where the politics totally inhibit the ability for if you see something, say something, to ever be a protective thing that we do as a society again. elected republicans, members of the senate who see something all the time are afraid to say something. there's no way that -- i don't know if there's any normal yet, but normal republicans whosa the insurrection as an insurrection and told us so, surely had to have known this was going on. can we protect the homeland? can we protect the country if half the people in this country are the people that describe themselves as republicans, will not say anything if they see something?

>> yeah, i mean, the simple version of your question is, can we protect us from ourselves? that's the threat right now. the threat and risk picture is higher than it's been in many, many, many years. and the toolkit, as you say, is lacking. and you know, if i had to pick a general category of questions that i get the most when i'm out and about or public speaking or on social media, it's this, it's this kind of question. who's going to do something about this? why can't we do something about this? can't this person be arrested? and i have to go through the whole lecture, unfortunately, on free speech, freedom of assembly, constitutional rights, what's a crime, what's not a crime. and the reality is that federal law enforcement, local, county, state law enforcement, can't be everywhere all at once. they can't be all over social media. we don't want that. but yet, like you said, when we're telling the average citizen, please notify law

enforcement if you're seeing something that looks like it's headed toward violence, and it's happening on c-span. that's a problem. that's a problem. >> yeah. yeah. all right, no one's going anywhere. we'll take a closer look at brand-new warnings. the right-wing extremists maybe looking to take aim at upcoming events celebrating pride and juneteenth. chris goldsmith, who tracks right-wing domestic extremist groups, will join us. later in the program that republican race to the bottom over who is promising to do the most damage to the department of justice and the fbi after the disgraced ex-president's indictment. what we're learning about ron from florida's radical plans later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. shelves. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. so caramel swirl is always there for the taking.

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today, guilty verdict on all 63 felony counts, including federal hate crime charges, for the man who killed 11 worshippers and injured seven others at pittsburgh's tree of life synagogue in 2018. it was the deadliest anti-semitic attack in u.s. history. prosecutors for the justice department are seeking the death penalty. the verdict comes at the peak of pride month and just before juneteenth celebrations that honor inclusion and our country's diversity. this year they coincide with the growing prevalence of targeted violence fueled by hate. nationwide days of coordinated action by neo-nazi organizations. the next one, our guest warns us, is tomorrow. christopher goldsmith, an iraq

war veteran who tracks the right-wing extremist threat. frank, paul, and dana are back with us. chris, tell us what you're tracking and what you're seeing. >> so there's a bunch of groups, white supremacists, neo-nazis, around the country and the world that set out a yearly calendar. once a month, they go out and they do these flash mob-style events all on the same day together to try and do like a shock and awe campaign. to get local press, to get national press, not just to show that they're out there and that they're active and to try and recruit new members, but also to intimidate not just the communities that they're in, but more broadly, all across the united states, vulnerable communities, whether it's the lgbtq community or the black community who will be celebrating juneteenth and pride this weekend. but they're also looking to make

it -- make young men, young white men who are going down that radicalization pipeline look like it's okay to go out and hit the streets, to try and encourage hate. what we've seen from history is that what starts with bigoted language and turns into bigoted action, turns into bigoted murder. and the synagogue shooter that was just found guilty is a prime example of this. the last thing that he did was he posted on gaab, a neo-nazi internet platform that's run in pennsylvania, posted that he was going to go in and murder a bunch of people. because that's the platform where he was radicalized. so this is a monthly campaign. what i want for folks to do is, don't freak out. when you see these people show up at these events, your natural inclination is going to be take out your camera, video record it, livestream it. that sometimes helps these

neo-nazi organizations spread their propaganda, spread that fear. instead, folks who are prepared for this, take out that same camera and take still photos. do what you can to safely, as long as you're not alone, take photos of the faces, even if they're masked, of their torso, of their face. teams like mine, and anonymous folks on twitter who are into open source intelligence, can use those photos to identify those masked assailants so that we can hold them responsible. also, if you're holding a pride event or a juneteenth this weekend, an event this weekend, and you expect these people to show up at your event, talk to law enforcement now. establish a relationship. if you know the bad actors in your neighborhood, you can issue -- talk to the police, get a no trespass order to protect private property. if they step across that line, that's a misdemeanor. now you've got them unmasked, in cuffs, and into the criminal justice system. >> chris, where is the line

between what you describe as flash mobs, sort of planned, out in the open, with the aims that you describe, and a subset, if you will, that is prone to or interested in violence? and do we know where the line is? >> there is no line. it's a pipeline. so i'll tell you an example. a big fan of patriot front, a neo-nazi organization that i've infiltrated with my team several times over, exposed their members, provided evidence of their criminal behavior to law enforcement, et cetera. a big fan of theirs, some older guy down in north carolina, decided to show up at my mother's house to drop off a death threat. he had never done anything, to my knowledge, in the real world as far as approaching someone, choosing a victim. now, with respect to frank,

there's a lot of reticence in law enforcement to enforce the laws while they're on the books. when on neo-nazi went to my mother's house and dropped off a book about a mother who guess missing, on the front of ate picture of hitler, on the back it said "fbi plus antifa cooperation." very clearly a targeted anti-semitic death threat against me. i told the fbi. the fbi went and talked to him, came back to me, "don't worry, we talked to him, nothing's going to happen." that same day, that same neo-nazi took that fbi agent's business card and mailed it to my home with another anti-semitic death threat, to new york. there are so many felonies. i'm sure frank could probably list all of they will off for you. has the fbi done anything? no. law enforcement pressed charges at the local level for one count of stalking. the madison county courthouse in north carolina has been looking

to maybe get rid of this case because it's only a misdemeanor, it's not worth its time. right? but people like task force butler, my organization, we're persistent. we're going to make sure that we hold accountable not just that neo-nazi but the assistant d.a. who wants to throw out the misdemeanor charges for a bunch of death threats. because these types of people who go from online harassment and bravado to in-person, showing up at someone's house, they're on that pathway to setting a bomb in somebody's mailbox. and law enforcement needs to start taking threats seriously when they're at that level before people like me end up getting murdered. >> you know, frank, it is an illustration of what you just described, right? that -- the question you've been hit with everywhere you go, as you just said, that there is a celebrated first amendment right to speech. an equally celebrated right to free assembly. a layer of political reluctance, right?

to clamp down on speech like this that tends to only happen on one side of the ideological divide. i think chris is describing one instance, and i won't paint the fbi with a broad brush, but i'd love your reaction to what he describes. >> so it's absolutely true that there's not enough exercise of existing laws that are in place, particularly at the state level. the police seem in many places not to be attuned to the rising and escalating threat level in this country and the need to proactively get out in front of it. the same goes for prosecutors as well. on the federal side, i know we're not here to debate whether something that's been described is or is not a federal crime. we could do that for an hour. i can tell you this. the people doing this kind of thing, the people that visited mom's house here, they know

where the line is. they know it, they know exactly where it is, they know what an interstate communication looks like for a valid threat to life. they know what it means to actually be specific about how it will happen and where it will happen. they know to fall back just behind that line. the problem is, enforcement, educating police and prosecutors, getting even u.s. attorneys -- once an agent goes to a u.s. attorney and says, look, threat to life or not? if that u.s. attorney goes, does it meet the statutory elements? they're left to do exactly what's been described here, which is pay a visit if you're lucky. the good news here is, there's a stepped-unwillingness and proactive approach at fbi to go ahead and do that knock and talk, they call it, that five years ago, four years ago, would not have been done. just don't have the time for it. now it is eating up a lot of

resources. knock, talk, put the gear of god into somebody, we know who you are, we know what you're up to. then you essentially cross your fingers. he's in the system, his name's in indices. that's where you are. maybe you solicit the local police, say hey, what are you doing? that's where we are today. >> i'm going to pull paul and donna into this. i have to sneak in a quick break, we'll be right back. d sm. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas... ...a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. (vo) crabfest is back at red lobster. when you can choose your crab, and one of three new flavors like honey sriracha... ...this is not your grandpa's crabfest... ...unless grandpa's got flavor.

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are back with us. paul, i want to broaden the topic to general national polling. it's not a huge number, but 4.4% of americans say they're willing to resort to violence to restore donald trump to the presidency. that's actually a massive number, because that means there are 12 million american adults who are comfortable with violence being one of the tools used to restore donald trump to the white house after he lost, after lawsuits brought by his team were defeated and rulings made by trump-appointed judges. it feels like we're at this very precarious moment where it's all connected but if we refuse to sort of see it as part of a piece, we might miss something. >> this is a very urgent moment. and you and i have discussed before how we talked about 9/11, said why didn't we hear the signs? why didn't we respond? well, this is a strategic threat, and it requires a strategic response. that's what we haven't seen so

far. piecemeal responses. after 9/11 we had the 9/11 commission, we had the patriot act, we had the department of homeland security, every police department and fire department is still reaping the benefits of the mass infusion of resources after 9/11. we haven't had a national strategic response for this national strategic threat. the pentagon's been sounding the alarm. frank's been sounding the alarm. chris is out there doing heroic work trying to combat them in the field. but we haven't had a national response. we need to get ahead of this. it needs to be set by the commander in chief. i know it's a difficult thing to do, hard for him to do, but he's got to do it now in this moment and enlist everybody around him just like we did after 9/11. this should be a clear and present danger, not just to democrats, not just to people in the press, not just to the lgbt community. it's a threat to all americans, and it has to be treated that way. >> donna, the biggest impediment

seems to be one of the two parties can't separate itself from potential or would-be domestic violent extremism. that used to not be hard. that wasn't hard, you know, five, ten years ago. they can't do it now, they won't do it. >> i think the things that both frank and paul pointed out is that there is not a partnership in the congress to accomplish the kinds of things that would need to be done on a national level in legislation, to give law enforcement the expanded tools that they need in the same way after 9/11 we gave them and our intelligence community expanded tools following 9/11. frank has spoken a number of times to the kinds of things that our law enforcement actually can't do when it comes to monitoring communications and chat rooms, et cetera. and so it really does require an adult party on the other side to join democrats in accomplishing

those things and speaking with one united voice. remember that view on 9/11 with every member of congress standing on the steps together, republicans and democrats. you don't have that now. instead, we have a core part of the republican party and its base that is sympathetic to insurrectionists, that continues to foment the kind of craziness coming from the other side and elevating those most extreme voices. so there is not a partnership to accomplish the kind of thing that you're talking about. and i will say, i mean, we heard before the last election that president biden actually came out foursquare, talking about the importance of democracy and preserving democracy in our institutions. and really just a couple of weeks ago on this point of domestic violent extremism. and so i think all of our

leaders have to step up. but it does require partnership among republicans, and frankly, we just don't have that. >> yeah, i think, paul, one of the things that we get wrong, too, is waiting for a circuit breaker moment. there won't be one. if it wasn't january 6th, it ain't coming. and i am certainly disgusted by marjorie taylor greene and paul gosar. but i am terrified by kevin mccarthy. because he sees these things the way people do on earth one, he just refuses to act the way one would have to act if they wanted to protect the whole country from that intersection of extremism and violence. what do we do about that? >> hope is not a course of action. yes, we should have both parties working together. but we don't. so we have to move out accordingly. we have to address the strategic threat with the resources that we have. and if the republicans won't come along, then biden and the democrats have to do without them. the fbi's already doing that. the department of defense is already doing that. we need to take the gloves off.

we need to stop screwing around here and really start calling it what it is and keeping the focus and enlisting resources. and the president's going to take some political pain over it, but it's going to be a lot less than the political pain he'll take if we have another waco or we have another oklahoma city. i mean, he's done a good job at times in naming it, but he's got to crack through, he's got to find new ways to do it. this is all hands on deck. if you're not with us, you're against us. and if you have to call out kevin mccarthy in doing it, then you do it. if you have to investigate marjorie taylor greene and gaetz, you do whatever you have to do, because the president's number one job is to defend the american people, and that's what he has to do thousand. >> paul rykoff, christopher goldsmith, donna edwards, thank you for having this conversation with us. we are grateful to all of you. frank sticks around. when we come back, the battle among republicans. the race to the bottom. who will take the hottest, biggest blow torch to the doj

and the fbi? frank figliuzzi on ron desantis's radical new musings next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ live your best day,

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it's been a race to the bottom. a game of one down man, a contest where candidates for president try to outdo each

other. florida governor ron desantis, we don't know if he's doing by desantis today, we has a plan that is so radical, it would essentially tear down and rebuild, i guess is the word to use, the doj and fbi from the ground up. from real clear politics reporting on this plan, quote, "the governor has privately told advisers he will hire and fire plenty of federal personnel, reorganize entire agencies, execute a disciplined and relentless strategy to restore the justice department to a mission more in line with what the founding fathers envisioned. his ambitions go beyond bur kraddick restructuring. he wants to physically remove large swaths of the doj from the district of columbia, including fbi headquarters." real clear politics reporting. frank, this isn't about a study where the institution is strongest and best positioned to protect the country. this is part of a frontal war on

the rule of law. and ron desantis is only waging it because donald trump is way ahead of him in the polls and he sees this as one of the necessary pillars to winning a republican nomination. what are the dangers in the real world to the fbi itself? >> yeah, i think this is an important time to ask, should i care about this? this sounds like a lot of political rhetoric about smashing the fbi to pieces and remaking it in the image of ron desantis or donald trump. i spent a lot of time thinking about the future of doj and the fbi if people like this were to get into power. the answer to the question, why should i care, is look at what the fbi's done for you, your community and this nation in the last year. just in the last year, the fbi's arrested over 20,000 violent criminals and child predators. they've dismantled 400 violent gangs in your communities. in the last five years, they've

recovered over 8,000 child victims of sex trafficking. the cyber crime folks they handled in the last five years, over 1 million complaints from citizens of cyber fraud that they've been victimized by, involving $10 billion in fraud. if you want that to go away, right? ron desantis is essentially saying, there really wouldn't be an fbi as you know it. there's proposals that he's mentioned to do away with the director's role, the position of fbi director. think about what that means. it means that this idea that we have a neutral fbi, that the director serves for ten years, straddles administrations so that he can't, he or she cannot be removed for political whim that would go away. essentially, with no director, the fbi about then work for who? the politically-appointed attorney general of the united states. and so we would literally have a police agency that serves at the whim of a political appointee who works for ron desantis or

donald trump or you name the authoritarian figure. it's a scary, scary prospect. then there are even discussionsing about on, and i have a force that tells me papers have been asked for way back when, both post-9/11 and even during the clinton/gore administration, there was much work being done about whether we should split the fbi into two different agencies, domestic intelligence and security agency, then a criminal law enforcement agency. because the fbi wears two hats. think about a domestic spy agency that answers to ron desantis or donald trump. >> no, i mean, i really think -- and this conversation is going to have to carry over to monday. but i really think, if we're covering ron desantis' plan for the fbi, we have to make sure -- if destroying the fbi is the answer he's offering, what is the question he's asking? you're absolutely right, why would you want to get rid of the agency that protects americans from all those threats?

what is the question ron desantis is asking if the answer is to dismantle the fbi and put it under a political appointee? by the way, fact check, it is currently under the leadership of chris christie's former attorney, donald trump's hand-picked director, christopher wray. thank you for spending the hour with us. we are so grateful to have that much of your time. a quick break, we'll be right back. that means your priorities are ours too. our retirement tools and advice can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. family is just very important. she's my sister and, we depend on each other a lot. she's the rock of the family. she's the person who holds everything together. ♪♪ it's a battle, you know i'm going to be there. keytruda and chemotherapy meant treating my cancer with two different types of medicine.

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